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|  John2004 Registered Member
       Date Joined Sep 2004 Total Posts : 141 | Posted 9/30/2010 10:07 AM (GMT -4) |   | I had not heard of this before but it looks like even more information that suggests either eating more omega-3 rich fish or taking fish oil is a good idea.
http://whfoods.org/genpage.php?tname=btnews&dbid=109
Farzaneh-Far R, Lin J, Epel ES et al. Association of marine omega-3 fatty acid levels with telomeric aging in patients with coronary heart disease. JAMA. 2010 Jan 20;303(3):250-7. 2010. | | Back to Top | | |
 |  DDye Forum Moderator
       Date Joined Jan 2002 Total Posts : 422 | Posted 9/30/2010 10:11 AM (GMT -4) |   | | | |
 |  Tom. Registered Member
       Date Joined Jul 2006 Total Posts : 1245 | Posted 10/1/2010 10:16 AM (GMT -4) |   | | One critical point that particular study didn't mention is that lipid peroxidation plays a key role in the the shorting of telomeres. So, gulping down "potential" oxidized, processed oil supplements in an attempt to get your essential fatty acids may actually be counter productive to extending life. | | Back to Top | | |
 |  John2004 Registered Member
       Date Joined Sep 2004 Total Posts : 141 | Posted 10/5/2010 10:05 AM (GMT -4) |   | Thanks for that info Tom,
How can we tell if the fish oil has been oxidized ? I take 4,800 grams of Nature-Made brand fish oil per day, which gives me about 1,440 mg of omega-3. I keep it in the refrigerator, but of course it's just sitting on the shelf in the store when you buy it. | | Back to Top | | |
  |  Tom. Registered Member
       Date Joined Jul 2006 Total Posts : 1245 | Posted 10/6/2010 10:46 AM (GMT -4) |   | John, It's not easy to tell if processed oils are oxidized or on the beginning stages of rancidity. By reading some of my researched articles, you've probably by now figured out that I don't support the consumption of processed oils, especially fish oils. Unless, fish oil is used to replace a more questionable prescript ion drug. However if you feel that you need to take processed oils like fish oil, here are some precautions; Bite into the gel cap and taste the oil. If it tastes rancid through the whole bottle away. Oil in the late stages of oxidation with taste and smell rancid. Unfortunately, many manufactures are putting lemon oil and other flavorings in the fish oil to mask the "fishy" taste which also masks the rancidity. Good for sales, bad for the informed consumer. In the early stages of lipid peroxidation it is nearly impossible to detect by taste or smell. Think of it this way. It's like habitually hitting your finger with a hammer and then taking Celebrex. Many people gulp down oxidized oils in many forms and then take antioxidants in the hope that it will counter the free radical damage. You want to minimize your exposure and risk as much as possible in the first place. Get your essential fatty acids from the freshest source possible; consumed as close and quickly to the way it came from nature. As a side note, I think one reason why some EPA and DHA studies show ineffective results using commercial fish oil supplements is because the researchers unknowingly use oxidized or even rancid oils that throw the whole experiment off. Okay, back to the precautions. Buy fish oils in dark glass bottles. Oxygen can get through plastic but can't get through glass. light can get through clear bottles, but harder with blue or dark amber. It's better if you can find a manufacture that packages the individual gel caps in opaque, nitrogen filled blister packs. That's not going to guarantee complete freedom from oxidation since the gel caps are not impervious to air either, but it's a better choice. As far as the PCBs, dioxins, and mercury is concerned, that was a major concern with fish oils and the main areas that manufactures were focused on. They did a good job cleaning that up but many never addressed the lipid peroxidation concern. They relied on previous, outdated studies on vitamin E, and as long as it contained vitamin E they assumed it was safe. Many of the nutritional oils sold are by-products of the fishing industry and filleting process. Fish come into port. In some cases they're flash frozen and in other cases they are shipped cold to a processing plant. The fish is thawed, processed and the scraps are pressed for their oils. Imagine all of the time in transit and processing and exposure to oxygen that occurs before any antioxidants are mixed with the oils. Here is a short, interesting article to read LINK | | Back to Top | | |
  |  John2004 Registered Member
       Date Joined Sep 2004 Total Posts : 141 | Posted 10/6/2010 3:02 PM (GMT -4) |   | Hi Tom, Thanks for the additional info. I think it makes sense to keep all food products, especially fish oil, as fresh as possible, both in processing and storage. It seems reasonable to conclude that other food products, fruits, vegetables, and meats that are starting to oxidize may also not be ideal as opposed to super fresh produce. I think the problem is that we don't really know to what extent this may be a problem. Problems from oxidized food are not going to readily present themselves, you would have to really study the issue with trials to get any real answers. Obviously, the fresher the better. I think that all fish oil manufacturers should try to fully address the issues of oxidation and rancidity, better safe than sorry. They also need to do some studies with many people, different dosages, and with several brands of fish oil, then compare this with people eating fish without supplements. If the fish oils supplements are oxidizing, I would suspect that the oil in the fish is also oxidizing during processing and storage, so eating fish may not be that much better. Plus, the fish is going through the cooking process and I suspect that might make matters worse as far as oxidizing the oils in the fish, especially if it were overcooked or charred. Here is an article I found that says fish oil oxidation is not real a problem; do you think any of their points are valid? Their references are at the bottom of the page. http://newsletter.vitalchoice.com/e_article001852076.cfm Since upping my fish oil intake to 1,440 mg of omega-3 per day and upping my vitamin D to 2,000 IU per day, I have noticed less anxiety, and my blood pressure is good. I'm not a big fish eater and usually when I eat it, it's Cod, which is not as high in omega-3 as salmon. I used to eat the canned salmon but I'm not crazy about it, fillet salmon is good but kind of pricey. Sardines have a great nutritional profile, are high in omega-3, and cost effective, but they say they have pcb's in them so I stopped eating them. I am going to keep taking fish oil supplements, but I am also going to keep researching this issue and look for the best brands and companies who utilize practices that are likely to provide the lowest levels of oxidation. It's probably also especially important with fish oil to remember to check the expiration dates on the bottles and buy as fresh as possible. Something in a dark glass bottle filled with unflavored fish oil you can put on a spoon may be ideal so you can keep an eye on how it looks, smells, and tastes. I like glass for storing anything we drink, I have always been suspect of problems with plastic containers chemically interacting with things we drink, but that's another topic. | | Back to Top | | |
  |  Tom. Registered Member
       Date Joined Jul 2006 Total Posts : 1245 | Posted 10/7/2010 10:19 AM (GMT -4) |   | FTU,
I was reading about this in a science publication a while ago, although this is what I came up with online. If you have time to search, you'll come up with more references as there are plenty out there.
". . .oxidation stress also can enhance the shortening of telomere length." Ji Zhang, et al, LINK
". . . Oxidative damage to both nuclear and mitochondrial DNA has detrimental effects, leading to uncontrolled cell proliferation or accelerated cell death". Kevin C. Kregel, et al, LINK | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Tom. Registered Member
       Date Joined Jul 2006 Total Posts : 1245 | Posted 10/7/2010 10:19 AM (GMT -4) |   | John,
Vital Choices® has taken a biased position because they have a business interest to protect. | | Back to Top | | |
  |  Tom. Registered Member
       Date Joined Jul 2006 Total Posts : 1245 | Posted 10/8/2010 10:05 AM (GMT -4) |   | Hum, sounds like your feathers got ruffled. Why?
A person does not need to be a white lab coat adorned scholar to publish articles from scientists. I write what is researched so don't shoot the messenger. I almost always post references to what I talk about so If you don't agree with what the scientists are saying you're free to debate it with them. They have all the credentials you're probably seeking to make you feel comfortable.
As a side note, some of the most brilliant minds had very little if any education. Even more ironic is the question; Where does education come from? It comes from experiences and/or personal insight handed down from one person to another to another, and so on. Hum, seem familiar?
To answer your other remark, research is sometimes a double edged sword. For every pro you can probably find a con, and vise versa. But when company X is manufacturing product Y and they find research to back up product Y that is an valid, understandable bias. Of course it doesn't mean what they found is incorrect. However, when there is a strong trend in opposite direction, that makes me wonder who is correct. I tend to error on the precautious side, especially when there is another way of achieving the same health goal while minimizing negative aspects.
Yes I am passionate about certain things. I think it's good to stay open at the top and expand your mind. | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Ross7755 Registered Member
       Date Joined Jan 2007 Total Posts : 28 | Posted 10/8/2010 10:31 AM (GMT -4) |   | I make one post and you go off and say I got my "feathers ruffled" when you are the one putting out post after post against fish oil, etc. You automatically dismiss any who disagree with you and adopt a superior attitude. In internet circles this is usually evidence of a troll.
By the way here are some references that do NOT support your viewpoint.
* Erdogan H, Fadillioglu E, Ozgocmen S, Sogut S, Ozyurt B, Akyol O, Ardicoglu O. Effect of fish oil supplementation on plasma oxidant/antioxidant status in rats. Prostaglandins Leukot Essent Fatty Acids. 2004 Sep;71(3):149-52. * Higdon JV, Liu J, Du SH, Morrow JD, Ames BN, Wander RC. Supplementation of postmenopausal women with fish oil rich in eicosapentaenoic acid and docosahexaenoic acid is not associated with greater in vivo lipid peroxidation compared with oils rich in oleate and linoleate as assessed by plasma malondialdehyde and F(2)-isoprostanes. Am J Clin Nutr. 2000 Sep;72(3):714-22. * Iraz M, Erdogan H, Ozyurt B, Ozugurlu F, Ozgocmen S, Fadillioglu E. Brief communication: omega-3 essential fatty acid supplementation and erythrocyte oxidant/antioxidant status in rats. Ann Clin Lab Sci. 2005 Spring;35(2):169-73. * Mas E, Woodman RJ, Burke V, Puddey IB, Beilin LJ, Durand T, Mori TA. The omega-3 fatty acids EPA and DHA decrease plasma F(2)-isoprostanes: Results from two placebo-controlled interventions. Free Radic Res. 2010 Jun 14. * Mori TA, Woodman RJ, Burke V, Puddey IB, Croft KD, Beilin LJ. Effect of eicosapentaenoic acid and docosahexaenoic acid on oxidative stress and inflammatory markers in treated-hypertensive type 2 diabetic subjects. Free Radic Biol Med. 2003 Oct 1;35(7):772-81. * Nalsen C, Vessby B, Berglund L, Uusitupa M, Hermansen K, Riccardi G, Rivellese A, Storlien L, Erkkila A, Yla-Herttuala S, Tapsell L, Basu S. Dietary (n-3) fatty acids reduce plasma F2-isoprostanes but not prostaglandin F2alpha in healthy humans. J Nutr 2006;136:1222 – 1228. * Palozza P, Sgarlata E, Luberto C, Piccioni E, Anti M, Marra G, Armelao F, Franceschelli P, Bartoli GM. n-3 fatty acids induce oxidative modifications in human erythrocytes depending on dose and duration of dietary supplementation. Am J Clin Nutr. 1996 Sep;64(3):297-304. Accessed at http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/64/3/297 * Quaggiotto P, Leitch JW, Falconer J, Murdoch RN, Garg ML. Plasma F2[alpha]-isoprostane levels are lowered in pigs fed an (n-3) polyunsaturated fatty acid supplemented diet following occlusion of the left anterior descending coronary artery. Nutr Res 2000;20:675 – 684. * Richard D, Kefi K, Barbe U, Bausero P, Visioli F. Polyunsaturated fatty acids as antioxidants. Pharmacol Res. 2008 May 18. [Epub ahead of print] * Thies F, Garry JM, Yaqoob P, Rerkasem K, Williams J, Shearman CP, Gallagher PJ, Calder PC, Grimble RF. Association of n-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids with stability of atherosclerotic plaques: a randomised controlled trial. Lancet. 2003 Feb 8;361(9356):477-85. * Wander RC, Du SH. Oxidation of plasma proteins is not increased after supplementation with eicosapentaenoic and docosahexaenoic acids. Am J Clin Nutr. 2000 Sep;72(3):731-7. | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Andrew Xnn Registered Member
       Date Joined Oct 2010 Total Posts : 14 | Posted 10/11/2010 10:05 AM (GMT -4) |   | Daily Exposure to PCBs, total (ng/day) 12.184 Solgar Norwegian Cod Liver Oil 27.272 TwinLab Norwegian Cod Liver Oil 29.816 GNC Liquid Norwegian Cod Liver Oil 39.121 TwinLab Emulsified Norwegian Cod Liver Oil 44.2 Solgar 100% Pure Norwegian Shark Liver Oil Complex 59.256 Nature Made Odorless Fish Oil 85.871 Now Foods Shark Liver Oil 240.65 Nature Made Cod Liver Oil 643.35 Now Foods Double Strength Cod Liver Oil 852.18 Now Foods Salmon Oil Daily Exposure to PCBs, toxicity-weighted (pg/day) 0.05561 TwinLab Norwegian Cod Liver Oil 0.0933 Solgar 100% Pure Norwegian Shark Liver Oil Complex 0.096724 TwinLab Emulsified Norwegian Cod Liver Oil 0.1368 Nature Made Odorless Fish Oil 0.741182 Solgar Norwegian Cod Liver Oil 1.12256 Now Foods Double Strength Cod Liver Oil 1.2096 Now Foods Salmon Oil 2.14114 GNC Liquid Norwegian Cod Liver Oil 4.11141 Now Foods Shark Liver Oil 12.0691 Nature Made Cod Liver Oil pg/day = picogram per day = trillionths of gram per day (the usual measurement unit for dioxin-equivalent toxicity). https://org2.democracyinaction.org/o/6491/images/Prop%2065%20fish%20oil%20press%20release.pdf | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Tom. Registered Member
       Date Joined Jul 2006 Total Posts : 1245 | Posted 10/11/2010 10:06 AM (GMT -4) |   | Actually Ross one definition of a troll is someone who "trolls" around in the shadows watching and waiting for the perfect opportunity to lash out with sloppy, unprepared information at people who post informative, researched work. Such as what you did. With only 28 posts since 2007 it seems to me that you have been the one not contributing on a regular basis to this forum but just trolling around.
It is so obvious during your moment of anger you just went around the Internet and found headlines that sounded relevant and threw a bunch of them up there hoping that something would stick. Absolutely no reading, research, thought or planning behind any of what you did. Many of them are not relevant and are even inversely associated. For example in one you posted:
Wander RC, Du SH. Oxidation of plasma proteins is not increased after supplementation with eicosapentaenoic and docosahexaenoic acids. Am J Clin Nutr. 2000 Sep;72(3):731-7
Hello??? That study was to measure changes in lipid oxidation when administered with vitamin E. It was not saying that lipid peroxidation from fish oil does not occur! Even though the fish oil didn't modify protein, the results clearly stated that; "The fish-oil supplement increased the plasma concentration of thiobarbituric acid–reactive substances."
The researchers concluded that it was a small increase but it did increase. And the vitamin E had no significant effect on TBARS at all and so the researches concluded that there is no basis for vitamin E supplementation after EPA or DHA consumption.
I already made that clear with research I did earlier! | | Back to Top | | |
 |  GeoC Registered Member
       Date Joined Aug 2001 Total Posts : 47 | Posted 10/26/2010 4:08 PM (GMT -4) |   | | OK, so how about krill oil? Is it any better, worse, or the same? | | Back to Top | | |
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