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miromiro
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   Posted 10/18/2001 3:14 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Do you drink wine? If so what is your favorite wine? If not,why not?

::I dont generally drink it because there is little hard evidence that the alcohol part is benefical and it is an expensive method of getting the bioflavonoids if that is its only purpose. What I use instead are berry fruits and unclaried concord grape juice which still has the deposit on the bottom of the bottle. However, I also am not averse to having a glass of dry red wine when I am at a social gathering.::
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Chris Allen
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   Posted 10/24/2001 2:12 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
>::I agree with your reasoning. However, to get the most bioflavonoids
>you need to use a dark red wine...::

Bergundy was determined to be the best type of wine (as far as OPC content goes) by an article in the Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry a couple of years ago (this was when they posted full-text articles on-line for free -- something they dont seem to do anymore). The article emphasized that the process used to make the wine is critical. Specifically, when bergundy is made, the grape seeds are crushed. The JAFC article also noted that the particular batch of grapes used to make the bergundy has a dramatic effect on the OPC content of the final product. You have to get a good year and you have to get it from the right vineyards for that year. Good luck!

Also, and coincidentally, there is a _very_ interseting article on the subject of wine chemistry in this months Wired. They should post it in about a month. Check it out on the newsstands if youre impatient. IIRC the gist of the article was that the flavor of wine is determined mainly by its phenolic content and that therefore chemistry tests can determine beforehand which wines will win taste tests. Of course, this also means that rare and precious $10,000/bottle wines should be fabricable with mass-produced chemicals. Lets just eat the chemicals and dispense with the wine silliness.

::I agree with the last, as long as we get *all* the beneficial chemicals that the natural product contains..::

-Chris
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steve
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   Posted 10/25/2001 5:06 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Before we all trash our remaining wine stores,

::I would never suggest doing that. Spending money to buy more is quite different from using up what you already have bought in a non-damaging manner.::

I post a report of the most recent distinctly pro-ethanol study (I realize there are negatives as well), which concludes that those drinking 15-29 grams of alcohol *at least* 5 days a week (1-2 glasses of wine) reduced their risk of developing type 2 diabetes by 36%. Gerald Reaven of Stanford has also studied the ethanol effect and concluded that ethanol has a significant beneficial impact of insulin sensitivity (in his popular book, *Syndrome X*).

::I dont disagree, but I think there are far healthier ways to accomplish those goals. However, if some people wont take the healthier route, then, for them, alcohol may be beneficial.::

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WESTPORT, CT (Reuters Health) Oct 12 - Men who unwind after work with a mug of beer or a glass of wine may be less likely to develop type 2 diabetes than their teetotaling peers, results of a new study suggest.

::Everything else being equal, of course.::

Researchers found that men who consumed 15 to 29 grams of alcohol daily had a 36% lower risk of diabetes over 12 years, compared with men who did not drink and with men who were lighter drinkers. Findings were similar when it came to beer, white wine or liquor.

::Perhaps they were easier going and had less stress, for example.::

Heavy drinkers, or those who consumed more than 50 g of alcohol daily, were 39% less likely to develop diabetes, although there were few men in the study who consumed this much alcohol, the researchers note. For this reason, the findings may not apply to all heavy drinkers, according to investigators led by Dr. Katherine M. Conigrave from the Harvard School of Public Health in Boston, Massachusetts.

Fifty grams of alcohol is roughly equivalent to three or four 12-ounce cans of beer, three or four 5-ounce glasses of wine, or three or four shots of hard liquor.

The report in the October issue of Diabetes also indicates that drinking on at least 5 days of the week provided the best insurance against developing diabetes, even when the amount of alcohol consumed was minimal. Men who drank no more than twice during the week did not have a lower risk of diabetes, the investigators found.

Their findings are based on data from nearly 47,000 middle-aged and elderly male health professionals who answered questions about their drinking habits. The subjects body mass index and age did not alter the results.

Decisions about alcohol consumption should consider the full range of benefits and risks to an individual; our data suggest that a reduction in type 2 diabetes may be among the benefits of regular moderate consumption, the researchers write.

The results support those of earlier studies showing an association between moderate alcohol consumption and a lower risk for some chronic disorders, including heart disease and type 2 diabetes, the authors note.

Our findings suggested that frequent alcohol consumption conveys the greatest protection against type 2 diabetes, even if the level of consumption per drinking day is low, Dr. Conigrave and colleagues conclude.

Diabetes 2001;50:2390-2395.
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miromiro
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   Posted 10/30/2001 9:48 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
::>it is an
>expensive method of getting the bioflavonoids if that is its
>only purpose. What I use instead are berry fruits and
>unclaried concord grape juice which still has the deposit on
>the bottom of the bottle.::

How many micromoles/liter of reservatol is in your fruit juice cocktail?

::I have no way to tell. Concord or any other kind of grapes can vary in their content depending on many factors. There is no standardization and the growers are generally not making measurements of such constituents. However, resveratrol is hardly the only ingredient in grape juice which is beneficial.::

A small winery in Oregon is very likely producing the worlds healthiest wine.

According to Professor Emeritus Le Creasy of Cornell University, Benton Lane 1997 Oregon Pinot Noir contained 40.9 micromoles /liter of resveratrol, the highest resveratrol level of any tested wine currently available.

Professor Creasy tests wines for their levels of resveratrol which is a potent anti-oxidant that helps prevent cancer and heart disease. Resveratrol is formed in winegrapes as a self defense mechanism against fungus. Wines from cooler, wetter climates, like Oregon, have a higher incidence of fungus and therefore have higher levels of resveratrol than say, wines from warmer, dryer climates such as California

::Since Ontario is also a cool wet climate and Concord grapes are a very dark color, I expect that they also will be high in resveratrol.::

Also, Pinot noir has twice the resveratrol level of Cabernet Sauvignon or Merlot. These wines average around 8 micromoles/liter while Pinot noir averages around 13 micromoles/liter of resveratrol.

Resveratrol is used in some ancient Japanese and Chinese folk health remedies and recent Japanese testing shows a beneficial effect in preventing cardiovascular diseases such as heart attacks, by boosting good cholesterol and preventing blood clotting.

A research team led by Professor Alberto Bertelli of Milan University found that resversatrol in three glasses of red wine can also help protect against degenerative disease such as Alzheimers and Parkinsons. Bertelli says it increases the effectiveness of the neutral enzym map-kinase by up to seven times. This enzyme stimulates nerve cells to regenerate. These are the cells that are broken in neurodegenerative diseases such as Alzheimers and Parkinsons.

Resveratrol and members of that family have a very powerful biological effect which can potentially prevent or minimize the risk of atheroschlerosis and heart disease. Apart from rather small amounts in peanuts, red wine is virtually the only source of these compounds in the normal human diet says Dr David Goldberg, Department of Clincial Biochemistry, University of Toronto.

::Thanks for the interesting article.::
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Chris Allen
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   Posted 10/31/2001 1:18 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 1999 Mar 2;96(5):2385-90
Inhibition of advanced glycation endproduct formation by acetaldehyde: role in the cardioprotective effect of ethanol.
Al-Abed Y, Mitsuhashi T, Li H, Lawson JA, FitzGerald GA, Founds H, Donnelly T, Cerami A, Ulrich P, Bucala R
Picower Institute for Medical Research, 350 Community Drive, Manhasset, NY 10030, USA.

Epidemiological studies suggest that there is a beneficial effect of moderate ethanol consumption on the incidence of cardiovascular disease. Ethanol is metabolized to acetaldehyde, a two-carbon carbonyl compound that can react with nucleophiles to form covalent addition products. We have identified a biochemical modification produced by the reaction of acetaldehyde with protein-bound Amadori products. Amadori products typically arise from the nonenzymatic addition of reducing sugars (such as glucose) to protein amino groups and are the precursors to irreversibly bound, crosslinking moieties called advanced glycation endproducts, or AGEs. AGEs accumulate over time on plasma lipoproteins and vascular wall components and play an important role in the development of diabetes- and age-related cardiovascular disease. The attachment of acetaldehyde to a model Amadori product produces a chemically stabilized complex that cannot rearrange and progress to AGE formation. We tested the role of this reaction in preventing AGE formation in vivo by administering ethanol to diabetic rats, which normally exhibit increased AGE formation and high circulating levels of the hemoglobin Amadori product, HbA1c, and the hemoglobin AGE product, Hb-AGE. In this model study, diabetic rats fed an ethanol diet for 4 weeks showed a 52% decrease in Hb-AGE when compared with diabetic controls (P < 0.001). Circulating levels of HbA1c were unaffected by ethanol, pointing to the specificity of the acetaldehyde reaction for the post-Amadori, advanced glycation process. These data suggest a possible mechanism for the so-called French paradox, (the cardioprotection conferred by moderate ethanol ingestion) and may offer new strategies for inhibiting advanced glycation.
PMID: 10051651, UI: 99162614

-Chris

::I am well aware of this result (I think that it is has appeared on these Forums before). However, acetaldehyde can also be harmful and thus, there are far better methods to reduce glycation than the use of alcohol. There are too many studies of the harm or toxic effects of acetaldehyde to list here. A PubMed search with acetaldehyde AND (toxic OR toxicity OR harmful) yields 833 hits.
*Weight of evidence* is what is necessary for rational decision making, not agenda-selective reading of abstracts and studies.::
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miromiro
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   Posted 10/31/2001 8:58 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
::Since Ontario is also a cool wet climate and Concord grapes are a very dark color, I expect that they also will be high in resveratrol. -- Tom ::

This is shody science! You would never accept this answer in the forum from an independent poster.

::It was not intended to be any kind of science at all! I simply use very dark, fresh pressed Concord grape juice which contains a deposit on the bottom of the bottle (which I shake off to make sure that I get it all)! I have no idea how much resveratrol it contains. I am not doing science here, I am using grape juice as a dietary source of bioflavonoids which very likely also contains some resveratrol. I dont have cancer or any health problems for which resveratrol is desperately needed, so I am quite satisfied for now that I am getting some amount of additional important nutrients to add to all the other vegetables and fruits that I eat. I also have no idea exactly how much anthocyanidins are in the wild blueberries that I eat. But so what! One cannot do science on a single person anyway. ::

Besides, Pinot noir can produce very light juice relativly speaking.

::Then such wine does not contain high concentrations of anthocyanidins since these are all highly colored.::

Anyway, man does not live by bioflavinods and reservatol alone.

::Where did you ever get the idea that I thought that. I certainly have never said so.::

Fine wine is one of the hallmarks of civiization.

::Nonsense. Wine making is as old as uncivilized antiquity. Primates eat rotten fruit in order to get intoxicated. Thinking and planning for the future are the hallmarks of civilization.::

In these uncivilized times, I suggest you chill out, turn down the lights, up the music, romance your lady, and partake of the vine.

::Good advice that *you* should take instead of accusing me of shody science when I did not even suggest that I was doing any science. Moreover, Kitty and I do great at chilling out and dancing up a storm without any alcohol as anyone who attends our dance clubs can attest. We have no need for alcohol or any other brain altering chemicals to help us become less inhibited or more romantic. We can do it by conscious choice and free will.::
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miromiro
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   Posted 11/1/2001 3:03 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
>
>Besides, Pinot noir can produce very light juice relativly speaking.
>
>::Then such wine does not contain high concentrations of anthocyanidins since
>these are all highly colored.::

You seem to love the sound of your own voice, and are not a careful reader.
The colour can vary from cherry red to plum red through to brown tones in older wines. The depth of colour is only light to medium compared to wine made from Cabernet Sauvignon or Shiraz.

::Anthocyanidins are naturally blue in color. They are the source of the blue color of blueberries, blackberries, purple and dark red grapes and other fruits with similar colors. So if the wine does not have a color which contains blue, then it contains no anthocyanidins, and the stronger the blue tones the more it has.::

>Anyway, man does not live by bioflavinods and reservatol alone.
>
>::Where did you ever get the idea that I thought that.
>I certainly have never said so.::

You implied that you drink fruit juices for their dietary benifits , and I am simply pointing out there is more to life and wine than that.

::So go drink it. I do very well without the crutch of its brain effects. If you need that, be my guest.
Kitty and I see them at the dance clubs all the time. People who cant loosen up and start to dance untill they have had a few drinks. For more about these conclusions see http://MoreLife.org/personal/kiton100801.html Kitty and I required nothing and yet, after particularly wild dancing, I have often been asked what are you on? Although we occassionally enjoy a glass of wine, we dont need it and use very little because we prefer to do our utmost to lengthen our lives instead.::

>Fine wine is one of the hallmarks of civiization.
>
>::Nonsense. Wine making is as old as uncivilized antiquity. Primates eat
>rotten fruit in order to get intoxicated. Thinking and planning
>for the future are the hallmarks of civilization.::

I said FINE WINE not rotten fruit drunk by monkeys. I stand by my statement.

::And pray tell what *objectively* makes it *fine*? Perhaps the fact that it intoxicates one more? I prefer the fine nuances of fresh cooked vegetables without butter or salt, of juices and fruits not smoothered with sugar!::

>In these uncivilized times, I suggest you chill out, turn down
>the lights, up the music, romance your lady, and partake
>of the vine.
>
>::Good advice that *you* should take instead of accusing me of
>shody science when I did not even suggest that I
>was doing any science. Moreover, Kitty and I do great
>at chilling out and dancing up a storm without any
>alcohol as anyone who attends our dance clubs can attest.
>We have no need for alcohol or any other brain
>altering chemicals to help us become less inhibited or more
>romantic. We can do it by conscious choice and free
>will.::

You miss my point completly.

Cheers

::And you mine. ::
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miromiro
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   Posted 11/2/2001 7:43 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
If your islamic faith prohibits drinking wine I respect that , but you should be more tolerant of others.

::I have been an atheist for over 40 years, and as I have repeatedly stated, I do occassionally drink a little wine (and beer too).::

It is obvious from your eccentric cryo-biologists rantings and ravings you are ignorant of the culture of fine wine.
While I doubt you would ask what objectivly makes Mozart fine music, I suggest you read about Enologix, a biochem company which has cracked the mathematical code for making fine wine!
Your vegetables may be salt-free , but your tounge is not; and your concord grape juice has more sugar in it than a Bourgogne.

Come, come, good wine is a good familiar creature if it be well used; exclaim no more against it.
--Othello, Act II, Sc. 3, line 293



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miromiro
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   Posted 11/5/2001 9:54 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
White wine even better for you than red, research finds
by Catherine Woods
2 May 2001
White wine could prevent the development of a range of diseases affecting the bones and joints, according to research presented at the Wine and Health conference in Palo Alto, California, last weekend.

Experiments commissioned by Friulian producer, Co-op of Cormons, and the German Wine Institute found that white wine is actually better for you than red because of its smaller molecules.

It contains the compounds tyrosol and caffeic acid, which act as anti-inflammatories and anti-oxidants, possibly preventing conditions such as rheumatoid arthritis and osteoporosis.

The report said two glasses of white wine a day could lead to a reduced inflammatory reaction, but warned that higher consumption appeared to cancel out these benefits.

It seems that relatively small molecules are at least partially accountable for white wines health-giving effects. Dr Alberto Bertelli (pictured), a researcher at the University of Milan, who worked on the project told decanter.com, The beneficial compounds in white wine are smaller than those in red and so more easily absorbed into the bloodstream.

Dr Bertelli also stressed that it was only in wine that the compounds became effective. The active compounds are also present in unfermented white grape juice and extra virgin olive oil, but it is only after fermentation that they are small enough to be efficiently absorbed by humans, he said, adding that over-zealous filtering and clarifying would remove the all-important compounds from the wine.

The most exciting message for white wine buffs is that this is just the beginning. Research is soon to start on sparkling wines, and Dr Bertelli says early results from other projects indicates de-alcoholised white wine extract has properties that may prevent cardiovascular disease in rats.

::As I have stated before several times, all these sorts of results address what might be beneficial for someone eating the Standard American Diet (SAD), which is generally so bad that many things will be beneficial, even if they also contain some negative aspects. Once more, alcohol produces aldehydes among other chemicals, and these are *not* beneficial for the health and longevity of the body. Therefore, for those people who eat an excellent diet and have an excellent lifestyle, it is highly doubtful that any alcoholic beverage will *add* anything overall positive to the effects of that diet and lifestyle. A little bit probably does not hurt, but it will not likely help either.

This is the last post that I will take from mirosmiros on this subject for a while.::
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miromiro
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   Posted 11/10/2001 10:15 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
>::I simply use very dark, fresh pressed Concord grape
>juice which contains a deposit on the bottom of the
>bottle (which I shake off to make sure that I
>get it all)! I have no idea how much resveratrol
>it contains. I am not doing science here, I am
>using grape juice as a dietary source of bioflavonoids which
>very likely also contains some resveratrol. I dont have cancer
>or any health problems for which resveratrol is desperately needed,
>so I am quite satisfied for now that I am
>getting some amount of additional important nutrients to add to
>all the other vegetables and fruits that I eat.::

From Michael Murray, ND:
Grape juice also contains flavonoids and has been suggested to offer similar protection to red wine. However, while studies in test tubes do show grape juice flavonoids to inhibit LDL oxidation, a recent human study showed that grape juice does not provide any significant protection. The difference between red wine and grape juice is thought to be due to the fact that the flavonoids in red wine are mainly pure flavonoids (primarily quercetin) while in grape juice the flavonoids are bound to various sugars that may reduce bioavailability.
Michael Murray, ND

::Murray is an ND (Doctor of Naturopathy). His training is even farther removed from science that that of an MD or DO. He gives no citation for the study, and I have no confidence that he would be able to understand and interpret such studies or that he makes an unbiased appraisal of the various studies, rather than merely choosing the ones which he likes as so many people in the health biz do.
Besides, as I have stated before, there are lots of other beneficial chemicals in grape juice besides resveratrol and even likely besides bioflavonoids for that matter. Using wine instead of grape juice is more like using a processed or extracted product instead of the raw product which likely contains many things whose benefits are unknown. Actually, whole grapes would be best and I sometimes put these into my smoothie and often eat the better tasting black grapes.
WRT, the bioavailability, yes, if you have an impaired digestive system, you might well not digest the sugar bound bioflavonoids in grapes as well as those in wine, but the normal healthy person generally has no such problem. If he did, the result would be flatulence after drinking grape juice or eating grapes since the sugars would be removed and used by the lower intestine bacteria, but I have not heard this reported.
But truly the difference between grapes and wine is probably not one dimensional and depends strongly on the benefit at which one is looking. Here are two studies showing benefits from purple grape juice for which there are no comparative studies for alcohol. At this time no one knows if these results would hold for red wine, let alone paler wines.

1: Circulation 2001 Jun 12;103(23):2792-8
Select flavonoids and whole juice from purple grapes inhibit platelet function and enhance nitric oxide release.
Freedman JE, Parker C 3rd, Li L, Perlman JA, Frei B, Ivanov V, Deak LR, Iafrati MD, Folts JD.
Departments of Pharmacology and Medicine, Georgetown University Medical Center,
Washington, DC 20007, USA. freedmaj@gunet.georgetown.edu

BACKGROUND: Moderate red wine consumption is inversely associated with coronary ischemia, and both red wine and purple grape juice (PGJ) contain flavonoids with antioxidant and antiplatelet properties believed to be protective against cardiovascular events. Acute cardiac events are also associated with decreased platelet-derived nitric oxide (NO) release. In this study, the effects of PGJ and PGJ-derived flavonoids on platelet function and platelet NO production were determined.
METHODS AND RESULTS: Incubation of platelets with dilute PGJ led to inhibition of aggregation, enhanced release of platelet-derived NO, and decreased superoxide production. To confirm the in vivo relevance of these findings, 20 healthy subjects consumed 7 mL. kg(-1). d(-1) of PGJ for 14 days. Platelet aggregation was inhibited after PGJ supplementation, platelet-derived NO production increased from 3.5 /-1.2 to 6.0 /-1.5 pmol/10(8) platelets, and superoxide release decreased from 29.5 /-5.0 to 19.2 /-3.1 arbitrary units (P<0.007 and P<0.05, respectively). alpha-Tocopherol levels increased significantly after PGJ consumption (from 15.6 /-0.7 to 17.6 /-0.9 micromol/L; P<0.009), and the plasma protein-independent antioxidant activity increased by 50.0% (P<0.05). Last, incubation of platelets with select flavonoid fractions isolated from PGJ consistently attenuated superoxide levels but had variable effects on whole-blood aggregation, platelet aggregation, and NO release.
CONCLUSIONS: Both in vitro incubation and oral supplementation with PGJ decrease platelet aggregation, increase platelet-derived NO release, and decrease superoxide production. These findings may be a result of antioxidant-sparing and/or direct effects of select flavonoids found in PGJ. The suppression of platelet-mediated thrombosis represents a potential mechanism for the beneficial effects of purple grape products, independent of alcohol consumption, in cardiovascular disease.
Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
PMID: 11401934

2: Circulation 1999 Sep 7;100(10):1050-5
Purple grape juice improves endothelial function and reduces the susceptibility of LDL cholesterol to oxidation in patients with coronary artery disease.
Stein JH, Keevil JG, Wiebe DA, Aeschlimann S, Folts JD.
University of Wisconsin Medical School, Madison, WI 53792-3982, USA.

BACKGROUND: In vitro, the flavonoid components of red wine and purple grape juice are powerful antioxidants that induce endothelium-dependent vasodilation of vascular rings derived from rat aortas and human coronary arteries. Although improved endothelial function and inhibition of LDL oxidation may be potential mechanisms by which red wine and flavonoids reduce cardiovascular risk, the in vivo effects of grape products on endothelial function and LDL oxidation have not been investigated. This study assessed the effects of ingesting purple grape juice on endothelial function and LDL susceptibility to oxidation in patients with coronary artery disease (CAD).
METHODS AND RESULTS: Fifteen adults with angiographically documented CAD ingested 7.7 /-1.2 mL. kg(-1). d(-1) of purple grape juice for 14 days. Flow-mediated vasodilation (FMD) was measured using high-resolution brachial artery ultrasonography. Susceptibility of LDL particles to oxidation was determined from the rate of conjugated diene formation after exposure to copper chloride. At baseline, FMD was impaired (2.2 /-2. 9%). After ingestion of grape juice, FMD increased to 6.4 /-4.7% (P=0.003). In a linear regression model that included age, artery diameter, lipid values, and use of lipid-lowering and antioxidant therapies, the effect of grape juice on FMD remained significant (mean change 4.2 /-4.4%, P<0.001). After ingestion of grape juice, lag time increased by 34.5% (P=0.015). CONCLUSIONS: Short-term ingestion of purple grape juice improves FMD and reduces LDL susceptibility to oxidation in CAD patients. Improved endothelium-dependent vasodilation and prevention of LDL oxidation are potential mechanisms by which flavonoids in purple grape products may prevent cardiovascular events, independent of alcohol content.
PMID: 10477529

Again, if you wish to use wine go right ahead. My overall evaluation for myself is that I would rather not make it a part of my life extension program.::

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Chris Allen
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   Posted 11/14/2001 3:14 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
miromiro wrote:
>While I doubt you would ask what objectivly makes Mozart fine
>music, I suggest you read about Enologix, a biochem company
>which has cracked the mathematical code for making fine wine!

The Enologix consulting firm is the subject of the Wired article I mentioned in this thread. The article is just now available online:
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.11/wine.html

(Warning: Panglossian content. Article should be consumed only with a large grain of sodium metabisulfite.)

-Chris
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Sky Blue
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   Posted 4/22/2005 4:09 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
For me, dinner just isn't complete without a nice glass of red wine. Tonight I had a glass of Il Facone from Puglia. It works for me. blush

Sky
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