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jkelman
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   Posted 11/26/2001 5:37 AM (GMT -4)   
I have lower back pain that has been diagnosed as degenerative disc syndrome. On the X-Ray it appears that a couple of the lower discs have been flattened or otherwise deteriorated. Apparently this allows tthe spinal facets to come too close together and causes inflammation. The pain is usually an overall soreness which can be sharp if the lower back muscles are strained. As the degenerative tag implies, the condition has worsened over the years. I have had physical therapy (stretching, exercise, traction), chiropractic adjustments and have reduced activity to minimize the discomfort (i.e much less exercise than I would like). I take anti-inflammatory supplements (fish oil) and most of the LEF recommended regimen plus chondroiton and MSM. I avoid excess carbs and caffiene. I am not obese. Over the last year I have also been forced to take anti-inflammatory drugs (Celebrex after Vioxx caused stomach pains). This is not something I look forward to for the rest of my life (I am 50).

It seems to me that the best solution would be regeneration of the discs. My doctors claim that the discs cannot regrow. Do you know of anything that might help?

::Tom asked me, as the resident expert on back problems, to answer your question. I was diagnosed with degenerative disc disease at age 24, after experiencing *severe* sciatica with a work related injury as an L & D nurse (those were the days of heavily sedated women in labor). I spent a month off from work then and periodically experienced sciatica down one or both legs. After starting yoga some 10 years ago, the incidence declined. Then this past April when I struggled with a large heavy suitcase while traveling, I had some of the same pain. Ive responded quite well to chiropractic treatment however, and am experiencing brief pain only when I cough (a darned sinus drip that Im working to eliminate). Interestingly to me, x-rays taken this past June didnt seem to show much change from what my orthopedist showed me more than 30 years ago - as I remember the films.

Getting specifically to your question, I recently came across a very interesting article in Applied Radiology describing a promising treatment for chronic discogenic back pain.

Intradiscal Electrothermal Therapy for the Treatment of
Discogenic Back Pain
J. Kevin McGraw, MD and Jeffrey S. Silber, MD
Applied Radiology 30(7):11-16, 2001. ) 2001 Anderson Publishing, LTD.

Conclusion

Intradiscal electrothermal therapy for chronic discogenic back pain is a relatively safe and effective treatment for patients with chronic discogenic back pain. Interventional radiologists possess the necessary technical and clinical skills to perform the procedure safely and effectively. Radiologists who perform discography should consider incorporating IDET into their daily practice. AR

The entire article can be read at: http://neurology.medscape.com/Anderson/AR/2001/v30.n07/ar3007.03.mcgr/ar3007.03.mcgr-01.html
This is Medscape, which requires registration but is free. You may be a candidate for this type of treatment. If so, please write back afterwards and tell us about it personally. **Kitty::

Before I forget, there is a major difference between the skills and chutzpah required to do a diagnostic maneuver and those required to insert a hot needle and destroy a structure!

MAL
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AJ
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   Posted 11/30/2001 1:40 AM (GMT -4)   
Having degenerative discs myself and having had 3 operations over the last 15 years related to this problem (last one was just about 1 year ago), I think I can speak to the problem as well. Ive recovered well from the last op and work out 3-4 times a week with weights, go on occasional 8 mile or so hikes, play tennis, etc. My back can get sore for a couple of days after tennis but a little Celebrex helps greatly. Other than that, I really dont have too much back trouble these days. The last operation cleaned out the area that was causing pain in my sciatica nerve. I was walking the next day and went home the 2nd day after the operation. I was in the gym 2 weeks later but it really took about 8-10 weeks total to get fairly well healed.

Are your discs degenerated or herniated? If herniated, you can cut the protruding pieces off and trim a little bone and generally get some good relief. This has worked for me. Of course, much depends on the skill of your doctor. I have read about some artificial discs to restore the height that has been lost but last I read, they still had a lot of problems. One interesting experiment I came across was to take the actual soft, jelly like center disc part that has dried out and replace it with one from a cadaver. This seemed to be having some success last I read.

Im surprised that IDET is still being pushed. I remember doing research on this about 1 1/2 years ago and found that most people who had gotten the treatment were either no better or worse off than before. My spine doc, Dr. Kenneth Light in SF who has done more than 1500 operations, says it doesnt work for most people (btw: I would highly recommend him). I know one person at my health club who had the IDET treatment and he has had more problems than before. I think he had to go back and do it again also. I just did a Google search on IDET and came up with a lot of hits, many of which seemed to be from doctors pitching the service. Seems that since it is considered minimally invasive, it can be done by most any doctor. Very scary when you are messing with the spine...

You might want to check this forum for IDET references:
http://neuro-mancer.mgh.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=Spinal Disorders 2&number=212&DaysPrune=1000

Some other links to investigate:
http://medic.med.uth.tmc.edu/Lecture/Main/back-surf.htm
http://www.spinesolver.com/
http://www.spineuniverse.com/index.html
http://www.aafp.org/afp/990201ap/575.html
http://www.spine-dr.com/page2.html
http://www.spinenet.com/index5.html
http://cbshealthwatch.medscape.com/cx/viewarticle/202553

AJ

::Thanks, AJ. Not having a problem severe enough to warrant any surgical techniques, I havent done any *thorough* investigation of IDET or others. Before anyone considers any such procedure, thorough personal research should be done. Thanks for the additional information. **Kitty ::
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GeoC
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   Posted 12/17/2001 2:41 PM (GMT -4)   
Visit a Physical Therapist who does McKenzie Technique. Some people have had great results. You might also want to look into Prolo Therapy (prolonews.com), recommended by Dr. Koop, however I personally have no direct knowledge as to its effectiveness or safety.

Good luck,
George
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DrDeb
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   Posted 5/24/2002 4:44 PM (GMT -4)   
Have you tried glucosamine and chondroitin? They will help regenerate the disc.

Bromelain will relieve the inflammation and help the area to heal.

Acupuncture will help to re-set the nerve roots to relieve irritation.



Its hard to demonstrate a pathophysiologic-anatomic effect of accupunture. First, it is controverisal how to control the study. No doubt discomfort is relieved, but it appears to be a functional phenomenon, like a signal to close the gate. Perhaps that was what you are referring to. the pain signal is diminished.

Bromelain is also very difficult to demonstrate. Proteins and polypeptides are digested before they are absorbed. Bromelain is a cousin to papain, which is the enzyme injected into the jelly-like nucleus pulposus to dissolve flattened and dessicated discs whcih are bulging onto nerve roots, thereby relieving pain.

Chondroitin goes into chondrocytes to replenish cartilage, so that the joint surfaces smoothe and provide better rotation with less sheer. I dont know for a fact that chondroitin or glucosamine is directly incorporated into dessicated discs, which have no vascular supply.

Tell us more.

MAL
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Roman
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   Posted 7/12/2002 11:02 AM (GMT -4)   
'Check out http://www.whale.to/w/boron.html. If that's not available, try getting it from Google's cache: http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache:8eiyDaGt0XYC:www.whale.to/w/boron.html boron arthritis&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
If you can't get it there, search for ARTHRITIS: THE MAINSTAY OF THE "HEALTH INDUSTRY"
THE DISEASE THAT "HEALTH" AUTHORITIES DON'T WANT CURED
by Rex Newnham, Ph.D., D.O., N.D.

That's about using high doses of boron. He says it's very effective.

Also, CMO (http://www.cmocure.net/).

'Mod: How do we reconcile the agenda of a so-called "expert" when it runs contrary to our own experience? And how shall we view the myriad "conspiracy theories" that come across our bows? We certainly agree that Boron is a trace essential mineral. MAL
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Jens
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   Posted 4/25/2003 12:15 AM (GMT -4)   
'
>It seems to me that the best solution would be regeneration
>of the discs. My doctors claim that the discs
>cannot regrow. Do you know of anything that might
>help?

I think the original post concerned this key point, that it would be better to have a way to regenerate the discs. I have the same concern, as I'm ten years younger than the original poster, and would rather not have to put up with these problems for another who-knows-how-many decades.

I think that realistically, glucosamine and chondroitin are the two substances that have been shown to probably have some regenerative effect, and since they have no side effects that I'm aware of they seem the best bet. Of course it would be nice to have new substances.

By the way, I wanted to ask a question about the Arthro Pro supplement and thought maybe that somebody would have thoughts. It contains the following:
Salicin combination 120 mg (25% salicylic acid derivatives obtained from wintergreen, purple willow bark and meadowsweet contains no methyl salicylate). I'm not sure whether this qualifies as aspirin or not (I think that aspirin is salicylic acid, but that it's usually sold as methyl salicylate). Wouldn't natural salicylic acid have the same potential side effects, i.e. gastrointestinal bleeding, that aspirin and other COX inhibitors have?'



>>I think that aspirin is salicylic acid, but that it's usually sold as methyl salicylate. <<

Mod: Me_sal is oil of wintergreen. Salicylic acid is natural. Aspirin-- actually a trade name of the Bayer company-- is AcetylSalicylic acid. the COX inhibition effects are known to be somewhat less, but more important, aspirin's main "disadvantage" as far as this goes is that it permanently acetylates the platelets so bleeding is a bigger hazard.


Other opinions? MAL
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westy27
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   Posted 11/8/2003 2:14 PM (GMT -4)   
'Please advise me of the doctors who practice this procedure:

(Bromelain is a cousin to papain, which is the enzyme injected into the jelly-like nucleus pulposus to dissolve flattened and dessicated discs whcih are bulging onto nerve roots, thereby relieving pain.)

My Mother suffers from a disc problem in her neck and we feel this may help. Thank you. Ted Westmoreland

'Mod: Until we hear from our participants, I suggest asking your Orthopedist and your local medical association. Ther procedure is not common because of the small but definite risk of anaphylactic shock. MAL
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AJ
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   Posted 11/12/2003 12:48 AM (GMT -4)   
'>'Please advise me of the doctors who practice this procedure:
>
> (Bromelain is a cousin to papain, which is the enzyme
>injected into the jelly-like nucleus pulposus to dissolve flattened and
>dessicated discs whcih are bulging onto nerve roots, thereby relieving
>pain.)
>
>My Mother suffers from a disc problem in her neck and
>we feel this may help. Thank you. Ted Westmoreland
>
>'Mod: Until we hear from our participants, I suggest asking your
>Orthopedist and your local medical association. Ther procedure is not
>common because of the small but definite risk of anaphylactic
>shock. MAL

I have had 3 back surgeries for herniated discs and bone spurs. Last was about 3 years ago. I have no pain now and workout regularly.

To the best of my knowledge, the bromelain treatment was discredited long ago. It rarely worked and often led to serious infections. You can do a Google search to look for information on this. Be careful because there are a lot charlatans out there pushing bromelain in one form or another.

Some real resources to check:
http://www.spine-dr.com/site/home.html (they have an active forum (bulletin board on the left frame))

http://www.spine-health.com/

http://www.spineuniverse.com/

http://www.spinaldisorders.com/
'
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KSS
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   Posted 7/14/2004 1:35 PM (GMT -4)   
My physiotherapist, Sarah Key Physio, Sydney, Australia (flys regularly to London to care for the backs of royalty) says 'flattened discs' have to be 'rehydrated' with 'mobilisation' in combination with anti-inflamatories, specific exercises to strengthen the muscle brace in the chronic phase, followed by yoga to strengthen and mobilise as a part of daily discipline. Hydration is an interesting subject. Look at www.watercure2.com.
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leppert
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   Posted 7/20/2004 6:26 PM (GMT -4)   
KSS your physiotherapist is absolutely correct.
 
One must first hydrate.  I like Dr. Batmanghelidg's book "Your Body's Many Cries for Water" and his web site www.watercure.com.  The "formula" is 1/2 your bodyweight in ounces and take 1/4 teaspoon of sea salt for each quart of water you drink.  No less than two quarts a day.
 
An absolutely flat disc can be pumped up after the body is hydrated.  This is done by a series of exercises, and does take time.  The Pettibon method of Chiropractic has cured many people with this problem...my discs are in the process and I haven't had sciatica in over a year.
 
You can call and find a Pettibon trained Chiropractor who does the Spinal Bio-Mechanics aproach.  http://www.spinal-tech.com/Referral_Network/Referal_Network.htm
 

Please call for a referral to a Pettibon doctor in your area.

1-253-853-5590 

 e-mail:  info@spinal-tech.com

 

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AJ
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   Posted 7/27/2004 2:54 PM (GMT -4)   

On the subject of hydration helping spinal discs and drinking 8 glasses of water per day, I say poppycock!  Anyone who has spent much time on the web should be able to quickly recognize that the Watercure site referenced above is pure pap and hyperbole.  Be careful not to believe everything you read.  Just because someone puts up a website doesn't mean they know what they are talking about.

In point of fact, too many people and websites simply spit out what they have read/heard somewhere else, without any real research or checking.  For this subject, they commonly parrot the "absolute" need for 8 (or more) glasses of water daily.  One, there are no scientific studies that have been done to establish this number for the average person and two, they rarely take into consideration all the liquids we get from drinking coffee, juices or milk, eating fruit or foods that contain water. 

Everyone's needs for water are different.  In my case, I drink an 8 oz glass of juice for breakfast along with 8 oz of 2% milk.  For dinner I drink 8 oz of apple juice.  Outside of this intake, I rarely drink more than another 8 oz of water daily unless I am doing heavy exercise.  Basically, if I feel thirsty, I drink something.  If I don't, then I don't {shrug}. 

Here is a link from Mayo Clinic on the subject of how much water "might" be needed by an average person:
 
Here are 2 excerpts from 2 articles to consider:
Why Drinking Too Much Water Can Kill You
Tue Jul 2, 2002 5:34 PM ET

Drinking too much water is dangerous because the body cannot excrete that much fluid. Excess water then goes to the bowel, which pulls salt into it from the body, diluting the concentration of salt in the tissues. . . . 
 
 
Why we don't need 8 glasses of water a day? No Need to Guzzle All That Water, Expert Says
Fri Aug 9, 2002 7:40 PM ET
By Maggie Fox, Health and Science Correspondent

WASHINGTON (Reuter) - Trying to do the "right" thing by drinking eight full glasses of water a day may do little more than make a person run to the bathroom, a researcher said on Friday.
. . .

 

 

Post Edited By Moderator (DDye) : 7/27/2004 6:00:02 PM GMT

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AJ
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   Posted 7/31/2004 11:12 AM (GMT -4)   
Came across this interesting article today. May be some tie-in to disc injuries also?
===============================================
http://www.scienceblog.com/community/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=3421

From University of Rochester Medical Center :
Scientists finger surprise culprit in spinal cord injury
Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 @ 7:16 AM PDT by bjs

ATP, the vital energy source that keeps our body's cells alive, runs amok at the site of a spinal cord injury, pouring into the area around the wound and killing the cells that normally allow us to move, scientists report in the cover story of the August issue of Nature Medicine. The finding that ATP is a culprit in causing the devastating damage of spinal cord injury is unexpected.


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leppert
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   Posted 8/2/2004 6:47 PM (GMT -4)   
AJ, I believe that the hydration is one part of regeneration. Exercising and "pumping up" the disc is the other part of the equation.

Poppycock? I can definitively say that it is not poppycock. I have been disabled for quite a number of years from a fall down 26 steps and only now after about 1 1/2 years of the Pettibon therapy is my quality of life improving rather dramatically. I can drive again. Have you ever been house-bound? Have you ever lived with sciatica day and night and a hip that felt like one big toothache?

No, the proof is in the results. I'm getting results, as are many others.
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AmericanAnglo
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   Posted 11/22/2004 2:10 PM (GMT -4)   
To jkelman -

Please check out Dr. Christopher's web site (in particular the 'Bone & Tissue Formula'). As I mentioned
to another member, a lady I know used it for cervical spondylosis (neck vertebrae disorder) and got
results in a short period of time. Check his herbal formulas for various disorders. One web site that
gives a detailed list of information concerning Dr. Christopher's remedies is herbsfirst.com. He has been
around for a long time and I personally think that he is brilliant.

AmericanAnglo
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AJ
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   Posted 12/15/2004 5:02 PM (GMT -4)   
leppert said...
AJ, I believe that the hydration is one part of regeneration. Exercising and "pumping up" the disc is the other part of the equation.

Poppycock? I can definitively say that it is not poppycock. I have been disabled for quite a number of years from a fall down 26 steps and only now after about 1 1/2 years of the Pettibon therapy is my quality of life improving rather dramatically. I can drive again. Have you ever been house-bound? Have you ever lived with sciatica day and night and a hip that felt like one big toothache?

No, the proof is in the results. I'm getting results, as are many others.
 
Yes, I have lived with excruciating sciatica pain for about 2 years.  Then I got surgery and there was no more pain.
 
Many of these web promoted "treatments" don't have any medical backing and often don't make logical sense.  Occasionally (perhaps though the placebo effect), they work for some people.  That does not make them a reliable or optimum solution.  Had you gotten surgery earlier on, you might not have been disabled for "quite a number of years".
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leppert
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   Posted 12/16/2004 1:37 PM (GMT -4)   
AJ you have got to be kidding!

Surgery would do nothing for my twisted and torqued hip, flattened discs, nor for the cervical vertebrae that went kaddywonkus. Surgery would have left me with lots of serious scarring and adhesions. No thank you and besides none was ever suggested.

This is not some "web promoted" treatment. I found out about it from a Dr who went through a marriage preparation program through our church Sep of 2002 (my husband and I are facilitators). He called the Dr and made the appt for me. Usually it is the other way round with people asking DRs questions. This time the Dr approached me and asked a gazillion questions and then referred me.

This Pettibon chiropractor works with several neurosurgeons and orthopoedic surgeons. They will send him patients to see if he can do anything with them before they go through surgery. Sometimes the patient isn't willing to put the time and effort into the therapy in the office and at home and will opt for the surgery.

This program takes a serious commitment in time and effort. Yes, I'd been through any number of other therapies over the years since '88 but with this one I've had some rather dramatic results.

Two years is nothing compared to the pain a lot of people have suffered through...even those who have been through surgeries. Believe me because I have volunteerred for many years with a Medicare counseling program and talk to a lot of disabled people.

Surgery should be the last resort. Once done it cannot be undone. AJ you were very fortunate with your outcome...and one of the lucky ones. This Dr believes in proper hydration as well.

Post Edited By Moderator (DDye) : 12/16/2004 4:40:04 PM GMT

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AJ
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   Posted 12/17/2004 6:31 PM (GMT -4)   

Puh-leeze...  If watercure.com isn't the epitome of pseudo-science and web hype, then I don't know what is.  Using adjectives like "breathtaking", awesome", "ground-breaking", etc. should give any thinking person a clue.  You can no more "hydrate" a specific part of your body than you can lose fat around your waist through doing only sit-ups or wearing a rubber girdle. 

Yes, surgery should be a last resort.  BUT surgery is not something to fear.  If you're in pain despite having tried non-surgical solutions, then you should consider surgery.  One should not live with constant pain.  My purpose here isn't to try and convince you or anybody else to go under the knife.  I only hope to help some people not fear the surgical option so much.  Yes, a few people who get surgery wind up worse and few even die.  But the vast majority usually come out better - IF they have a good doctor.  But it's up to the patient to find the good doctors.  Forums like LEF can help in this.

As to your flattened discs, the FDA has recently approved an artificial disc.  Artificial disc's have been used in other countries for some years now and seem to work.  Hip replacements are not a particularly difficult operation these days.

However, I'm glad your "water cure" worked for you.  Good luck.

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leppert
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   Posted 12/20/2004 12:20 PM (GMT -4)   
AJ , I don't know where you are getting your figures from but "the vast majority" do NOT do better after surgeries.


Why should I have artificial discs put in when my own are plumping up quite nicely? No the "water cure" didn't cure my problems but it certainly has aided my recouperation.
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AJ
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   Posted 12/21/2004 2:01 PM (GMT -4)   
leppert said...
AJ , I don't know where you are getting your figures from but "the vast majority" do NOT do better after surgeries.


Why should I have artificial discs put in when my own are plumping up quite nicely? No the "water cure" didn't cure my problems but it certainly has aided my recouperation.
All the reading I have done and people I know who have surgeries indicates that the vast majority of people improve with surgery.  Since you disagree with this statement, it is your job to prove it wrong.  Some cites are in order, please.  I doubt you will be able to find any figures to support your "belief".
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high thinking
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   Posted 12/27/2004 12:55 PM (GMT -4)   
For herniated discs there is a simple but highly effective technique developed in Italy by Dr. Cevare Verga. The technique invovles injections of ozone around the herniated area. Dr. Verga , an orthopedic surgeon , claims a success rate of over 90% with this procedure. His technique is practiced in this country by a small number of physicians and is called the " discosan method ". In addition, Dr. Frank Shallenberger - www.antiagingmedicine.com - has taken this technique a step further and employs a combination of prolotherapy and ozone injections together. Impressive results from a top notch doctor in Nevada. Anyone with a disc problem needs to look into the enormous potential of these simple , safe , and effective procedures. high thinking
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AJ
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   Posted 12/27/2004 12:56 PM (GMT -4)   
Artificial disk an alternative to spinal fusion
Recipients give positive reports but insurers still have doubts

- Barnaby J. Feder, New York Times
Friday, December 24, 2004

Julie Cervinka, a 23-year-old legal secretary, had been eager for doctors at the Beth Israel Medical Center in Manhattan to implant an artificial disk called the Charite in her spine ever since the Food and Drug Administration approved the device Oct. 26. Last week, Cervinka got her wish.

[...] 

Some of the anecdotal evidence for the Charite is impressive. The first European recipient of a Charite disk is still playing tennis 20 years later, according to Bitan. And Jeffrey Lee Gibson, a 46-year-old stuntman who received a disk two years ago as part of the U.S. Charite trial, said he left the hospital the day of the surgery and was able to perform a four-story stomach-first fall for the television show "Third Watch" 12 weeks later.

But many insurers here remain unconvinced by experiences cited in Europe, where more than 6,000 patients have received disks over the years. Many doctors helping American insurance companies assess new technology say that the European studies do not rigorously track results in enough patients to know how long the disks last. Nor, they say, are there comprehensive data that clearly predict what happens when they fail.

Despite limited insurance coverage so far, DePuy says that demand for the Charite has outstripped the availability of the doctors trained to insert it. About 200 of the nation's 6,000 spine surgeons have made the trip to Blue Ash, Ohio, the Cincinnati suburb where the company runs its three-day training sessions. But 2,000 have signed up to go.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/12/24/MNGLGAGRUS1.DTL

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giabear
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   Posted 4/30/2009 10:24 PM (GMT -4)   
I am 35 years old... I have a beautiful daughter that is not even two years old and I was just diagnosed with advanced degenerative disc disease and spondyolisthesis of the L5 on the S1 vertebrae. I had xrays reviewed by two doctors and an MRI reviewed by a spinal surgeon. His recommendation was surgery of course... to correct the spondyolisthesis. He said it might save me some time until the other discs go. I'm going to try everything.... every pill I can take, every back/ core strengthening ecercise I can do, every therapy program to regenerate my discs I can find.... If I have to drink water and eat sea salt then so be it.... my daughter needs me and right now I cant even stay on my feet long enough to get her half way to the park to watch her play. If anyone has heard of anything ground breaking or any alternatives to surgery.... I would really appreciate it. So far this is what I've heard may work.

Inversion table
Pettibone therapy with a chiropractor
Discosan method if I can find someone that does it
Watercure
prolotherapy-Regenerative injection therapy RIT
Mckenzie technique with a physical therapist
Pilates
Yoga
Fish oil
LEF regemine
chondroiton and MSM
glucosamine

am I missing anything that can help?
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triman
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   Posted 6/25/2009 1:53 PM (GMT -4)   
A new form of prolotherapy uses platelet enriched plasma (using blood extracted from the patient) produced by putting whole blood in a special centrifuge and reinjected at the site needing healing. Never had it done myself; suggest you google it if interested.
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Bayford Man
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   Posted 7/14/2009 10:56 AM (GMT -4)   
I responded to this entry once before and am taking the opportunity to respond again because of the positive results experienced by three other individuals as well as myself (on two different occasions). One lady had cervical spondylosis and was cured within a week; one lady had a severe stiff neck and could not even raise her arm to shoulder level; another lady had a worn pubic bone that was causing her agony to walk and I personally had a finger (injured with a petrol hedge trimmer and required stitches) that was completely healed within a week. I have receding gums (am 64 years old) and used this same product to eliminate all sensitivity from exposed nerves (in two different places) in my mouth within one month. The lady with the stiff neck said that she noticed a 65% improvement within three days and it continued to improve to the point where she no longer has any movement limitations and/or pain. The lady with the worn pubic bone said that she experienced an 85% improvement within the first month and she attributed her success to this product.
The product I am talking about is called "bone and tissue formula." It regenerates cartilage and bone. You can order the product on a web site called herbsfirst.com. Information about the product is available on another web site called herballegacy.com. It is a fantastic product.
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Date Joined Jul 2009
Total Posts : 2
 
   Posted 7/20/2009 10:05 AM (GMT -4)   
Flexcin @Flexcin.com Has worked very well for my family, stopped 3 surgeries on 2 knees, and one shoulder. Cured them along with a bad hip and another with foot problems that was going to have surgery.  I heard about on "Duke and the Doctor" a radio show a couple years ago.  Check it out. It may work for you.
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